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Notes All Party Parliamentary Group Meeting

by CanSS, posted 28 01 2013

Bernard Hogan-Howe

General factors of cannabis use increase likelihood of crime.  There are several ways that we need to address these issues.

We need to address the health issues involved in the taking of drugs as well as enforcing the law.

To address these health issues we need a robust drug education programme so that young people in particular are aware of the risks they are taking of both their physical and mental health.

Bernard Hogan-Howe became aware of “the elephant in the room” at a crime convention where both medical evidence and crime evidence raised the issue of cannabis abuse.  He was so concerned by the problems being caused that he went back to Merseyside where he worked on a total policing operation of zero tolerance.

A huge problem we are facing now comes from the fact that cannabis is very different from the cannabis used by people born in the 50’s,60’s and 70’s.  They don’t believe that it is that bad.  At that time, most cannabis was imported and had low THC levels coupled with a higher CBD content.

Approximately 2/3rds of the herbal cannabis is now grown in the UK.  With careful development of the plant it is now very potent and its potency seems to be increasing all the time.  Levels frequently are found of 20% THC now and it is certainly not the harmless substance that it was perceived to be once.

Four things contribute to crime:

Alcohol

Drugs  -  two thirds had drugs problems when they went through the cells

Design

Young people – the more we can do to help young people the less crime

There should be a three tiered approach to dealing with this:

Level 1   - Street dealing

This is being dealt with by Operation Hawk.  We collect intelligence and then go to a magistrate’s court to obtain warrants to put their doors in.  This applies to drugs and cannabis factories, guns, cash, burglary to fund drug habits.

Level 2 -  International Supply of Drugs

Big problem of drugs coming in from Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Middle Tier -  Within London -  who smokes cannabis – who supplies the demand.

2010/11 figures show 3% of 16 – 39 year olds used in their lifetime.  1 in 6 teenagers have used.

In 2007/8 there were 3,000 significant finds of cannabis farms.  In 2011/12 this had risen to 7,868.

There are now more and more small scale operations rather than one large factory.  Since 1st April 2011, six and a half tonnes of cannabis has been seized.

We need to couple robust policing with good drug education to stop young people using.  Employers could drug test employees.  If found positive, employees would have the choice of obtaining treatment to stop, or to forfeit their jobs. 

How many of us would like to be operated on by someone under the influence of cannabis, or be driven on a bus by someone who had taken it?  Would we like to be nursed by someone or our children be taught by someone under the influence of drugs?

The level of acquisitive crime would drop significantly if the drug problems were dealt with.

Question and Answer Session

Nigel Price

The education aspect is vitally important.  I go into schools and most of the young people I speak to still consider cannabis to be a “soft drug”.  Youngsters still do not realise the strength of cannabis.

We need to put skunk as a Class A drug.

Charles Walker

The idea of cannabis as a soft drug is still framed around the use by people in the 60’s and 70’s.  These people are totally unaware of the strength of skunk cannabis.

Bernard Hogan-Howe

We classify to send the impression of how dangerous drugs are.  Regardless of where you draw the line for classification, there should still be substantial prison sentences for dealers.  Will you get detected is still a strong factor of if you do it.  Robust policing is essential.

We must do more to educate young people.  It is a criminal offence to possess cannabis.  They must be informed that it is not a minor drug and we must be much more clear about its potency now.

Dove Gerber – The Club House

We see both sides of harm reduction and drug prevention education as many of our young people are already users.  Is the conditional caution a good way forward to deal with people arrested?

Bernard Hogan-Howe

Yes, but only if there are the resources available to help them move away from taking drugs.

Dove Gerber

It has been piloted – road services – they have to pay themselves.

Bernard Hogan-Howe

Whilst I would support the principle, would this transfer to the streets?

Baroness Hollins

How often is cannabis mixed with alcohol when associated with crime?

Bernard Hogan-Howe

Many have been drinking.  80% are alcohol affected.  60% have a drug addiction problem.  In prisons, some 80% have drug problems.  Both of these substances affect each other.  We must remember that the psychological problems caused by cannabis are huge and very significant.

Baroness Hollins

Two of my children have been assaulted by those using skunk, but she has been told that it was more to do with their alcohol use.

Bernard Hogan-Howe

It could very well be the combined effect.  When compounded, the effects are very bad.

Charles Walker

On the question of whether to legalise or not, some say that legalising would protect our young people but we should remember that alcohol and cigarettes are both legal but we have not managed to protect our young people against them.

Question from the Floor

Why do we not use the strongest, most effective media to get to them?  Why don’t we use media more?

Bernard Hogan-Howe

Drugs should not be made legal.  They are illegal because they are not safe.  

Mary Brett

The lax policing of cannabis in Holland is being challenged. We need a worldwide response.  Holland now classes any skunk with THC levels higher than 15% as a hard drug.

Question from the Floor

We shouldn’t legalise.  There is so much violence caused by some people using cannabis.

Question from the Floor

When was the last time that anyone saw an advertisement against the use of drugs?  The last time I can recall was over a year ago.

Bernard Hogan-Howe

It is also not always easy to tell who is drug driving.  Driving under the influence of drugs can be more dangerous than drink driving.

Although we know that alcohol is also dangerous to the health of young people as well as cannabis, we do need to point out that one is legal and one is not.

We must point out to them the health issues of using cannabis as well as the dangers of drug driving.

Charles Walker to Sir Robin Murray

May we please put you on the spot?  Could you please give us a little idea of the health issues?

Sir Robin Murray

The risk of psychosis is much higher in people taking skunk.  Genetics also do play a part and some people are more susceptible.   Marta (di Forti) will endorse what is happening in on-going studies.  We know what happened to concentrations of THC in skunk up until 2007/8 but we really do need to analyse the current strengths.

Marta di Forti

Every week we have new referrals.  4 out of 5 of these are using skunk.  It is now apparent that most people can only get skunk.  I would very much like to analyse samples of the skunk seized by the police to gauge the THC levels.  Would it be possible for us to collaborate with the police on this so that we can further our research?

Bernard Hogan-Howe

Yes, we could.  We should have the reports.  From today we should provide samples for testing.

John Graham

We need to highlight that the strains of cannabis now are very much more potent.  There is much harm minimisation around now.  I work in addiction treatment centre.  I work with RAPT.  There is a substantial level of people committing crimes caused by their use of alcohol and drugs.  Maintenance treatment does not work.  When these people leave prison they go back to their crimes to support their habit.  Abstinence treatment is the only way to stop their behaviour.

We should make a point of promoting abstinence rather than methadone programmes and this treatment must be made available rather than the promotion of harm minimisation.

Bernard Hogan-Howe

There needs to be programmes of abstinence available on the outside of prisons as well as inside or this would not work.

I would support prison testing and then a programme to carry of supporting them afterwards.

Kathy Gyngell

On the question of the impact of skunk on behaviour, my observations of boys show that skunk has a distinct effect on their behaviour.

As police, do you really perceive cannabis as not having a negative effect that would disinhibit them?

Bernard Hogan-Howe

Alcohol has been well research and documented, but drugs have not been so well researched.  I have not seen such research but I would like to.

Dave Charles

I have a son of 26 who has had run ins with cannabis.  He basically finished his o Levels and then ran into the company of the wrong people.  Perhaps the solution is to try and find more active things for young people to do rather than hang around the parks.

Bernard Hogan-Howe

It always helps to try and stop kids getting involved.  Clubs and pubs are also causes of problems with drug taking.  These both need to be targeted for dealers.  Young people are talked into trying something new.  Some will become addicted either through personality or through genetics.

Mary Brett

There are many research papers now linking psychosis with skunk use and violence.  There is a huge psychotic effect with skunk cannabis.

Sir Robin Murray

The more skunk they use, the less successful they are academically.  Studies from New Zealand show that there Is a drop in IQ with those using cannabis.  It is also shown to cause minor mental health problems as well as psychosis and cognitive problems.

15 years ago, South African schools tested for drug use.  Why don’t we do that here?

Richard Ayres

500n children at technical college were shown Mary’s slides at a drug education session.

They were shown what it does to the brain etc.  Parents from the Luke and Marcus Trust also spoke about losing their children to drugs, and former addicts also spoke.  From my perspective, seeing those children listen and then give feedback forms which were positive says a great deal.  We must not underestimate the kid’s abilities to understand technical information.

Unfortunately it is incredibly difficult to get into schools to give educational talks.

Bernard Hogan-Howe

Schools don’t have much time.  It sounds very sensible to and we need to make children aware of the information available.  We need to watch to see if their behaviour is changing and intervene at the earliest opportunity if we think they are becoming involved in drug taking.  Schools need to answer that question too.

Chris Knight

It is supply and demand.  Why don’t we tackle cannabis as a gateway drug?

Tony Smeeton - retired GP

My wife and I support families affected by drug/alcohol addiction.  We really do need to educate doctors about the psychotic effect of cannabis and convert them to our point of view.  At present, GPs are very ill informed as it is not part of their general training.

Bernard Hogan-Howe

How do we identify the youngsters most at risk?

Sir Robin Murray

Interestingly, the most difficult group of doctors are the addiction doctors.  10 years ago, psychiatrists didn’t believe cannabis was dangerous, although now the general consensus is very aware of how dangerous it is.  The wider profession still needs to be educated.  There is very limited treatment of cannabis available to users.

Charles Walker

I reluctantly have to draw the meeting to a close.  Very many thanks to Sir Bernard and to you all for coming.